Carmel City Council to discuss anti-discrimination ordinance

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  • debrockman

    Well, since Carmel has not had a single complaint by anyone for being unwelcoming, this seems a particularly self-serving, self-promoting piece of showmanship. Unfortunately, instead of leaving Carmel with an image of openness, it is creating an understanding that people who hold sincere religious beliefs are not welcome there. Apparently, they are too affluent to need God’s laws anymore. From Councilwoman Sue Finkam’s flippant suggestion that she could help her constituents find moving companies if they were concerned, to Mayor Brainard’s inane references to the blogs of individual Christians who clearly construct their own versions of the gospels to justify their lack of human understanding of God’s laws. Mayor Brainard, I suggest you start using source documents.
    This administration is proving itself to be tone deaf to its citizens who believe in first amendment religious rights, who ALSO do not believe in discrimination, but truly believe that they are not mutually exclusive desires. It makes you ask, “Carmel continues to be a welcoming place for anyone”? Even the citizens Ms. Finkam asks to MOVE? I, for one, am left with a decidely different impression.

    • Huh you serious. Carmel has many places of worship. Go to your hearts content. All this says is you should not treat someone different because of your religion. You do not have to agree with what I believe but your believe should not trump mine. No one is hurting anyone’s religious rights. You can be a baker and post signs against gay marriage you can even wear that as a shirt or button. You just can’t refuse to bake the cake. In fact, bake the cake and tell them what they are doing is wrong. See you can both have rights

      • debrockman

        A garage mechanic can specialize in German cars. A baker should be able to specialize in biblical marriage.

        • No. A garage can specialize in German cars but they can’t refuse to fix your German car if you are Jewish for instance. A baker can specialize in German Chocolate cake and refuse to bake vanilla. You just can’t determine who you bake the German Chocolate cake for. See the difference? If not then you need to learn.

          • debrockman

            If you are baking cakes for weddings and a wedding in your faith is one man and one woman, then you shouldn’t have to bake a cake in the traditional form of a tiered wedding cake for someone entering a relationship your faith defines as sin. If that gay couple want ed to order 10 dozen specialty decorated cupcakes you would need to bake them. Cupcakes have no symbolism. It isn’t a matter of willingness to serve. It is willingness to serve a cake that symbolizes the union of two people in marriage. If we don’t start protecting both the gay couple to exist and faith traditions, this country will be hopelessly mired in conflict. Unnecessary conflict. This ordinance is unnecessary. Open your bakery that happily serves the gay community. Proudly advertise and thrive. Leave the observant Christian, Muslim, Jew….in peace. And I have read your snarky previous posts where you denigrate people who believe differently. You are a bigot.

          • Wow I’m a bigot. No just want everyone to be treated equally. By the way we tried your way. Business with signs that said no colored or no Jews allowed. Maybe your not a bigot just naive Cupcakes are ok but wedding cake isn’t. You think everyone will abide by that. Remember the cookie place in Indy who wouldn’t make rainbow cookies? It’s also a sin to get divorced so should the baker not bake a cake for a second marriage? By the way why am I a bigot because I don’t like discrimination. You need to look up the definition, and yes that is being snarky

          • debrockman

            Yes. You are a bigot. You routinely make bigoted statements here about Mike Pence’s beliefs, for one. And I believe a person who bakes cookies should be allowed to decorate them in a way they believe represents their values. If they believe by faith that gay behavior is a sin, they probably wouldn’t want to decorate w the pro gay lifestyle emblem. I don’t think a photographer should be required to photograph pornography, either. But People are free to find a photographer who wants to DO so. You are one of those people ONLY comfortable with discrimination against Christians. You have shown that in dozens of prior bigoted posts.

          • I am no bigot. I am against anyone forcing their religion in the public square. That’s called separation of church and state not bigotry. Again read the definition.

          • debrockman

            Then you should stop being an anti Christian bigot. The “separation of church and state”is slogan, not law. The LAW is the First Amendment. The First Amendment protects religious freedom.

          • Wow. No state established religion. That is in the constitution. So to prove your discrimination you lie call me names and spin hatred. I hope your proud

          • debrockman

            It isn’t hate to be allowed to practice your faith. And a business person asking to be allowed to both serve customers and do so in accordance to their faith beliefs is not the “state establishing a state religion”.

          • stakino

            yes, it is hate if manifests itself that way. a loving couple is doing nothing harmful to the world, discriminating against them because of the backwards way you practice your faith is not acceptable. Segregation was upheld as a faith based practice.

          • stakino

            using your faith as an excuse to mistreat others is a lifestyle, sexual orientation is not

          • debrockman

            Referring a client to a service that will better serve them is not mistreatment.

          • stakino

            yes, it is. The reason behind it makes a difference, Being told you cannot be “served well” because of your sexual orientation or gender identity is extremely demeaning and humiliating, and why would you ever want to treat someone like that if you are truly a christian. People like you are why we need this ordinance, to protect and teach children that they are valued and that people like you are not future that they are people with rights that matter.

          • debrockman

            Everyone’s rights matter unless they have beliefs that they believe come God. Both parties rights matter. There are other bakeries. There is no other place for the religious baker to go….except out of business.

          • stakino

            My beliefs do come from G!d-Hashem would not create people faslely, every person is made betzelem Elohim, in the image of G!d G!d does not fight two people who love each other, misguided backwards, bigoted humans do.

          • debrockman

            49% of young people in the UK now say that they do not see themselves as a specific gender. Congratulations on your progressive beliefs. Kids are unbelievably confused today. I choose to be kind to everyone. But if asked to personally participate in support of sin. I decline.

          • stakino

            kids are not confused, you are-you are putting strict binaries onto them that they never asked for and love is not a sin. it never will be.

          • debrockman

            Thinking sexuality is love shows the level of your confusion.

          • stakino

            two consenting adults entering into a bond of love is love….

          • debrockman

            My belief is that sex outside of marriage, even by consenting hetero adults is sin. But I don’t treat people who cohabit distespectfully. But I wouldn’t bake them a wedding cake or celebrate their relationship at an altar, either.

          • stakino

            they are in a loving marriage before Hashem who loves the creation they are

          • debrockman

            The state telling a person of faith that they have to separate their religious beliefs from their work IS the state sponsoring religion.

          • stakino

            so then segregation should be okay since people believed the bible supported it?

          • debrockman

            No, the difference is that the Bible DOESN’T support it.

          • stakino

            Nether does it support your beliefs-the bible has marriage as between one man and multiple women-that isn’t legal today

          • debrockman

            New Testament marriage is one man/one woman.

          • stakino

            it also supports slavery so I don’t think using it as a legal basis is the strongest argument

          • debrockman

            It does not support slavery. Read it. Slavery existed, but neither Jesus or Paul affirmed the institution. Paul did define sexual sin. Whether you agree w Paul or not is your personal concern. That is for your church to decide. My church accepts Paul’s teachings. Why are you so convicted that everyone has to accept the same truth you believe? What a control freak. There is room for all opinions. And lots of bakeries and photographers

          • stakino

            have you really not picked up that I am not christian….lol

          • debrockman

            I’m totally OK with you not being Christian. ….and I’m actually Fine w you living in your belief system. You are the totalitarian. Not me.

          • stakino

            no, you are the one trying to push your restrictive belief into the public sector, my belief is opening up something to more people not restricting it

          • debrockman

            I think the right answer will be for a baker/photographer who only wants to serve doctrinal weddings to be that they contact their wedding services outside their storefront businesses. Sell cakes through your storefront. Sell wedding cakes on contract through a church as part of their doctrinal ceremonies.

          • stakino

            “backwards” doctrinal weddings, there is much doctrine that does not view it as such, but sure that could work hopefully they make it public so people who support equality cannot patron there

          • debrockman

            I support equality and treat my married gay friends as what they are. Equal. But individual churches have rights to individual doctrine. And since you do not know the mind of God, as I also do not, we seek as best we can.

          • stakino

            this ordinance does not regulate churches.

          • debrockman

            Yet.

          • stakino

            No one has ever pushed for anything like this to apply to places of worship, they are always exempted.

          • debrockman

            They already are talking about taking away churches tax exemption for just this reason.

          • stakino

            Who is they, no liberal religious orginzations have or will support that-maybe you’ve read some person say this but it is by no means a goal in any way

          • debrockman

            http://time.com/3939143/nows-the-time-to-end-tax-exemptions-for-religious-institutions/ actually, they are. This is a mainstream topic of discussion

          • stakino

            that is not a religious organization…. I didn’t say liberal in general….

          • debrockman

            Religious organizations WOULDN’T support it. Obviously. But liberals across the country are hoping to take away the tax exemption of the churches in order to diminish them.

          • stakino

            If that makes your church diminish able then there were other issues

          • debrockman

            Stakino, clearly you are neither in the 1/2 of Americans who pay all of the federal income tax, or a churchgoer. When I give to a church, every dollar goes to the church. If they lose the tax deductibility of church contributions and if churches pay taxes, they will have far less money to feed the poor, shelter the homeless and care for the sick. That dimishes the work of the church…..which is the intent. It is much more efficient than the govt. Which does less for higher cost.

          • stakino

            it also says women must cover their hair in the new testament all the time or have it cut off, do you fully follow either

          • stakino

            it also tells you as a women not to speak in church-have you ever spoken a word in church, don’t want to do something the new testament says you shouldn’t

          • debrockman

            There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that women should not teach. That is doctrine of individual churches…..crafted by men. You should read the Bible. It’s a wonderful book. Focus on the NT, though. Even God knew we weren’t up to the OT.

          • stakino

            1 Timothy 2:12 – But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

          • debrockman

            Preaching and speaking are different things and there are different churches because there are different interpretations. As there are different beliefs about gay marriage. Why not study the Bible and let it do it’s work on you, with your personal experiences. It is an individual experience. I’m not out there trying to close churches and businesses that don’t conform to my doctrine. What is YOUR problem. Live your life. This is America.

          • stakino

            my problem is people like you trying to stop me from doing so-that is all that we want, but allowing business to discriminate does not do that, your friend shutting down her business is exactly what should happen if she can’t live up to do a holy act and be a part of a loving commitment before hashem then ending her business is right, what isn’t right is saying she should be able to keep it open but also discriminate

          • debrockman

            I think bakeries owned by religious people are going to have to stop selling wedding items through their storefronts, but instead, contract those services in churches as part of wedding packages, where their beliefs are in synch.

          • stakino

            however when this ordinance passes, and Baruch Hashem it will, then sure, but I doubt it is sustainable to do so, rather just make them for all loving ceremonies support love, it is what Hashem would want.

          • debrockman

            It will pass because the TC wants it to pass – no matter what their constituents think. One of the TC members told a constituent to move. How open minded. But in scripture we are told Gods ways are not our ways. Which means we don’t know what God thinks. That includes you. God has turned entire cities to rubble. He comes back w a bloody sword. He loves us. But he’s not a fan of sin.

          • stakino

            “sin” as you see it is also really mostly a christian testament, not hebrew testament thing-and no one said that comment was acceptable, but this ordinance is so important-it sends such a crucial message to GLBTQ youth in Carmel-they have rights and deserve to be treated with dignity, they are genuine, real, amazing people despite what backwards christians say.

          • debrockman

            Everyone has rights. And everyone is good and bad. And Christians know that about themselves as well as anyone. The issue is about a Christian being forced to participate in a service they consider to be a sacrament before God, when it doesn’t meet what they believe to be in God’s plan. It doesn’t mean Christians see gay people as any less God’s children, or that gay people cannot receive God’s grace. All have sinned and fall short….And all can be forgiven.

          • stakino

            Not everyone is looking for “forgiveness” the way christianity approaches it, and I say again-if it is really christian sacrament then why aren’t those christians fighting to silence women completely there are just as much about that in the nt as there is about homosexuality.

          • debrockman

            There are lots of articles written about women in the church….including many articles that explain why it was so in bible times. For one, the life of the apostles was dangerous and too physical for women. I happen to attend a church where women hold support roles. But Im not trying to shut down churches that hold more liberal beliefs. I’m not concerned that there will be churches that splinter off to attract gay couples. It’s a big Country with room for lots of beliefs. Our goal needs to be to find ways for everyone to coexist without threat.

          • stakino

            1 Corinthians 14: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

          • debrockman

            There is nothing in the Bible that justifies discrimination. And Christians should not discriminate against gay people in employment, housing, etc.. But a Christian who serves the wedding business may define wedding as man/woman. As do Muslims and Jews. If they choose to lose that business, it should be a choice they can make without the threat of the law.

          • stakino

            do not speak for those you do not represent-fewer and fewer jews every day do not support equal marriage, and almost every congregation in the Indianapolis area-including the one in Carmel-supports equal rights. The congregation in Carmel is fully supporting the ordinance, just because you use your faith in a backwards way doesn’t mean everyone does.

          • debrockman

            There are conservative Jews and liberal Jews, just as there are conservative and liberal distinctions in many things. If a congregation supports gay marriage, it is fine. If they don’t, that’s fine. If a bakery wants to work on cakes for weddings, they should. If another doesn’t, that’s fine too. Diversity is wonderful. This country is large and can accommodate differences of opinion.

          • stakino

            A congregation is not a business that serves the public-this has never been about regulating how places of worship work-and uour comment on Jews just shows your lack of knowledge-do you even know what a “Conservative” Jew is? This isn’t about the country it is about one city working towards equality over hate.

          • debrockman

            A conservative Jew is orthodox….and they live under Old Testament law. It is a very strict faith. Much more strict than even Bible based Christian faith. I grew up in a community of orthodox Jews on the east coast.
            And many people who run businesses serving weddings are in it as an expression of faith. I know a photographer who is ending her wedding business because she knows she cannot perform a wedding for a gay couple . She’s the kindest person I know. Not a hate bone in her. She simply doesn’t put money higher than faith. Congratulations. Sig Heil.

          • stakino

            no, there is a movement called conservative judaism, an orthodoxy exists in many fashions, and there are queer orthodox jews

          • debrockman

            There are Hasidic jews. They are orthodox. They consider gay sex to be sinful. Look, Stakino, gay is only one sin. It’s no better or worse than any other sin. God doesn’t rank sin. Not using your talents is sin. Pride is sin. A sharp tongue is sin. I don’t judge another’s sin. I work to depart from my own. But I don’t hold celebrations for my sin before God. And many people in the wedding business don’t want to be celebrating sin because of their faith. They will treat gay people respectfully in every other part of their lives. ….even treat their relationships respectfully. ….but not celebrate the ceremony as part of a faith community. The fact that you cannot accept it and choose to find another person who WANTS to be part of it shows your bias and closed mind.

          • stakino

            you are a women, the new testament says you should be silent, stop acting in sin

          • debrockman

            Actually, it doesn’t. That is the doctrine of some churches. Some of the most powerful people in the NT were women. Mary, for one.

          • stakino

            woah woah woah, so its okay to take a couple verses and use it to call something sinful=are you sure about that, like you totlaly aren’t doing that wiht homosexuality at all hmmm hyprocrite much

          • debrockman

            What I think is OK is that churches form their own opinions about the Word of God and be allowed to live within it in peace. I think the answer for bakeries is that storefronts serve products…..buy a lovely tiered cake and enjoy it. If you want to only supply cakes for religious services, set yourself up as a service provider through a church. Coexist.

          • stakino

            this ordinance is about saying if you deny someone a service based solely on their sexual orientation or gender identity that is discrimination and it is worthy of bing fined. period. churches have not and will not fall under that nor do they in this ordinance, no one is saying it should.

          • debrockman

            The next step will be to disallow churches from tax deduction for following doctrine. And so be it.

          • stakino

            no. it isn’t. no one has suggested that.

          • stakino

            and a product of that movement stabbed a 16 year old girl to death a couple weeks ago, so I don’t think that is something that should be held to high regard

          • debrockman

            And gay people have killed one another, too. Weak argument. Hasidic jews do not condone stabbing people.

          • stakino

            here we go, you keep not being silence, have you not read your bible?

          • stakino

            is it christian to be hateful towards two people who only want to express their love for each other?

          • debrockman

            Yes. And I also think that a business has a right to define someone’s business.

        • stakino

          have you read the bible? “Biblical” marriage is not legal-last time I checked you can’t have multiple wives.

    • stakino

      people like you are WHY Carmel needs to pass this ordinance, to show all of the teens (like me) who grew up in Carmel and are LGBTQ+ that people like you do not speak for the city.

      • debrockman

        No, the truth is, the city does not speak for the taxpayers who think that the state has no right to force people to abandon their faith to operate a business. Carmel is a big progressive town. There is room for many belief systems.

        • stakino

          if that is how you live out your faith it deserves to be abandoned.

          • debrockman

            Unless, perhaps, it is correct.

          • stakino

            But, it isn’t.

          • debrockman

            Thank you for communicating the direct word of God. The point is, we don’t really know, do we? We do our best. I choose to follow the word I have followed, which has served me well for 5 decades through good times and bad. You can follow Brainard.

          • stakino

            and the pain that yours has caused people makes you never changing honestly pathetic

          • debrockman

            Lots of things that are right cause pain. Not doing drugs for an addict causes pain. Surgery causes pain. Lack of pain does not define good.

          • stakino

            but you could also not cause such pain…attitudes like yours kill teens. kill.

          • debrockman

            I am not causing pain, I’m looking for solutions that respect individuals.

          • stakino

            no you are, you most assuredly are. by saying those people who look down on others based on how G!d created them tells LGBTQ youth that their lives aren’t valuable-that is the message christians like you send.

          • debrockman

            No it isnt. None of my gay friends think I look down on them. I attend their weddings and send the best presents. I just won’t go to a gay church wedding. Everyone sins. You aren’t less of a person for being a sinner. You’re just a person.

          • stakino

            You are literally using the “black friend” argument…. Fortunately you are not young

          • stakino

            Attitudes like yours kill teens, attitudes like mine save them-one of those seems much more Divine than the other, and if you think it’s the one that kills you are really challenged

        • stakino

          have you ever once thought about how damaging your belief system is to lgbtq youth, the lives you are hurting, I really hope those are not your children in that photo, and if they are I pray they do are not lgbtq

          • debrockman

            I don’t believe in hurting lgbt people. I believe they should live their lives in accordance with their beliefs. Just as I expect LGBT people to do for others.

          • stakino

            LGBTQ individuals do not have “beliefs” they way you are implying-no one chooses that as an identity-why would I choose to be viewed by hateful like you as “sinful” (something Hashem would never inherently make me)

          • debrockman

            http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sexual-orientation-uk-half-young-people-say-they-are-not-100-heterosexual-1515690
            And no, God didn’t make you sinful, but after the original sin, we altered God’s plan. Now “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

          • stakino

            that is one hateful way of approaching it, there are so many people of faith who do not, you choose to be hateful and believe in Hashem so falesly

          • debrockman

            In my opinion, telling people that their sin is good is a lot worse.

          • stakino

            I showed you the new testament doesn’t like women having a voice and yet you keep doing it, I must keep pointing out the wrongness of your sin

          • debrockman

            Are we in church?

          • stakino

            1 Timothy 2:12 – But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. But be in silence. such a sinner

          • debrockman

            But since gender is fluid, clearly this is not doctrine in your faith.

          • stakino

            I do not believe in the new testament at all, you are the one who is claiming sin from it not me-im simply using a quote from it the way you do.

          • debrockman

            Here is a shock. I support your right to believe that.

          • stakino

            it isn’t about what I believe-the point is that your beliefs don’t get to damage others, a baker would also not be allowed to not bake a cake for someone solely because they were christian-under your idea that would be okay.

  • Larry Verrill

    WOW….when I started reading these comments, I didn’t know it was going to turn into a religios debate between debrockman, bigjar and stakino. All experts on the subject I’m sure……
    Probably no room left for my comment…….